Nostalgia has never meant anything to
me. I'm I'm never interested in in in
what we did in the past. I'm interested
in what we're doing in the future. It
would be really sad if I was still
trying to write about being a
20-year-old man in my 50s. So, I try and
write about the things that concern me
now.
>> Do you want to deliberately avoid
politics?
>> No, I don't want to deliberately avoid
politics, but I think it's become
increasingly tribal and increasingly
toxic and it's very difficult to talk
about.
Hello and welcome to Ways to Change the
World. I'm Christian Giri Murphy and
this is the podcast in which we talk to
extraordinary people about the big ideas
and their lives and the events that have
helped shape them. My guest this week is
Brett Anderson, the frontman of Suede,
who are releasing their 10th album
called Anti-Depressants and are taking
over the South Bank Center in London for
a series of events in September. Now,
that of course will be after a summer of
Brit pop revival provoked by the Oasis
concerts. That whole movement was of
course something Suede were inescapably
associated with, but always a bit
disdainful of. Suede remain unmistakable
in their sound. But Brett's writing
continues to evolve to the times and his
age. Never acutely political, it is
nonetheless clearly social commentary,
and it's a delight to welcome you to the
studio.
>> It's a pleasure to be here, Christian.
So, uh, you've called this, in fact,
there's a track on the album called
Broken Music for Broken People.
>> Yeah.
>> What do you mean by that?
>> I sort of feel that sort of society is
on a is a kind of a bit of a breaking
point at the moment. It feels like we're
in a bit of a pressure cooker and I
don't quite know what the next stage is.
Um, but it feel I wanted to reflect some
of that. I wanted to reflect some of the
sort of 21st century angst that I' that
kind of like bleeds through into my life
and lots of people's lives, I think. And
I think as a as a writer, you're you
know, it's it's not it's very different
from being from being a journalist.
You're not looking for specific
questions and specific answers. You're
picking up on on on kind of like your
senses are picking up on on emotions and
things and it's much more of a kind of a
impressionistic
view of the world that you're making.
It's um kind of like it's a writing
songs is very much about expressing
feelings. So I was trying to express
some of those feelings.
>> And what do you think that 21st century
angst is?
>> Where does it come from?
>> I don't know. I'm not a journalist, so I
I can't really I can't really pinpoint,
but I know it's there. And so music is
music is a blunt tool in lots of ways.
You know, songwriting is a very blunt
tool. You haven't got the kind of like
you haven't got the kind of nuances that
you have you might have if you're
writing pros. you're tied to rhyme and
you're ti tied to rhythm or all these
sorts of things. And and because of
that, music is a very blunt tool, but
when it kind of strikes the right chord,
it's incredibly powerful. And three or
four words kind of like sung with a with
a with a certain melody can can really
be incredibly powerful, actually. So, I
kind of I'm always searching as a writer
for for for those little moments, those
little moments of magic.
>> I mean, a sw a suede record is is
unmistakably a suede record, you know? I
mean, you're very much still the rock
band that you became famous for. Uh,
although obviously there's variety and
development along the way, but I mean,
is that a conscious thing that you have
to, you know, we are basically doing
three or four minute rock songs with
choruses?
>> So, I think you you you become sort of
like more conscious of of your own
identity. And I think we become as you
get older, you you're able to sort of
analyze that and able to able to
pinpoint what it is that make that gives
you something different from other
bands. So kind of musically there's
there's there's things in in in the in
the makeup of our music that we can kind
of identify. There's a thing called the
suede chord. And the suede chord is is
what we put in often at the end of a
chorus or the start of a chorus. And
it's basically a chord that to takes it
out of the key and it kind of shifts and
it kind of like has a has a bit of a
jolt. So there's like little musical
devices we put in there that gives us
our own sound. I suppose as well there's
other things like I mean the nature of
my voice is quite it's not I don't have
a kind of like a normal sort of like
rock voice. It's a different kind of the
way I use it and stretch it and stuff
like that is different. So yeah, I think
you kind of you just lean into it and
you learn you learn to sort of respect
what's what's unique about you. I think
>> who created the suede cord? What what is
it?
>> Suede cord. I don't really know. It's
just something that kind of like came
about and then we kind of realized it
was there, you know. Yeah.
>> Um, and do you know when to use it?
>> I think so. Yeah. Maybe sometimes we
overuse it, but it's it's a thing that's
there in the in Suedes makeup. Yeah.
>> And you I mean you mentioned your voice.
I mean like how cuz again your voice
sounds
um it's it's you know it's got this very
very distinctive sound and very
distinctive production.
>> On on the records. Yeah.
>> Is that difficult to maintain as you get
older or does your voice change?
>> Oh, I see what you mean. Uh, no, my
voice your voice does change. There's a
there's a tendency for people to sort of
think that as you get older, you can't
reach the notes, all that kind of thing.
And that's not really true. When you're
in the middle of a tour and you've been
singing for three nights in a row, your
voice gets a bit ragged. But I kind of
like I can my falsetto is still pretty
good and I I think I can still reach the
notes. And I I kind of learn how to use
it now. I learn how to I I learn on what
part of the sort of register it's it's
comfortable and I kind of I kind of I
can kind of like sort of lean into a
kind of like more of a kind of um sort
of interesting baritone now whereas
before I wasn't really in control of
that part of my voice. So you just sort
of um experience is a wonderful thing.
It kind of like it just teaches you how
to learn to play your instrument and my
instrument is my voice.
>> Um the new album is called
anti-depressants. Yes. Why? Why? And
>> it's a it's a it's a slightly cheeky
title because it almost like the the
phrase anti-depressants, excuse me, kind
of refers to the 11 songs on on the
record. It's supposed to be like, you
know, these these 11 songs are the
anti-depressants kind of thing. Um, so
that's one level of the of the of the
title, but also I I kind of wanted to
sort of hint at and reflect the the kind
of like there's a sort of there's a sort
of medicalization of society that I find
fascinating that kind of sense that that
that the human condition is being turned
into a prescription. And I kind of
wanted to reflect some of that. I find
certain phrases like something like
personality disorder. That phrase is
really interesting because personality
disorder is basically
can cover any any sort of part of the
range of being a human being. And
>> do you have any diagnosis yourself?
>> None that I'm willing to share. Um, so I
find that I find the whole
medicalization of the human condition
really fascinating and and and and the
sense of depression being something that
you can cure the pill is really is
really interesting. And I think in lots
of ways it's quite deluded. I think that
that I think I think sadness and and
unhappiness and anxiety are just
necessary parts of being a human being.
Um, and I mean did you always feel that
sort of um
need for anti-depressant if you like?
>> I always
>> I mean is that part of you know why you
took drugs when you were younger and all
that kind of stuff or
>> Well, I don't know about that but it's I
think that there's different definitions
of anti-depressants. You know that you
can use music as my anti-depressant in
lots of ways. I'm still completely in
love with music and you have to be if
you're if you're pursuing a career sort
of 30 plus years down the line sort of
thing. So music is an incredibly
powerful thing for me and I I I use it
like a like I'd use a pill. I kind of
wake up in the morning and I put a
record on and you know I go through the
whole day listening to music and it's
you know it's a it's a it's a it's a
wonderful thing
>> and and how different is listening to
music to writing music when it comes to
your mental health?
>> Much much easier to listen to music than
writing music. I mean, we spend um we we
we write a lot of songs, so we work very
hard at what we do. So, this new album,
we probably been writing it for about
three years now. Every album takes at
least two two or three years to write. I
know we throw a lot of songs away. Um we
we probably wrote 50 songs for this
album and end up using about 10 of them.
So, it's about a 5:1 ratio kind of
thing. 4:1 or whatever. My math isn't as
good as it was. What makes you throw
them away? And what happens to the
thrown away songs?
>> They just get they they get they get
they just die gasping, you know, for air
in the in the kind of in the bag sort of
thing. They they sometimes get reused um
rarely. I I I don't mind. I'm quite I'm
quite um uh uh I'm quite sort of
ruthless. I don't I don't I'm not
particularly sentimental for songs that
don't get used.
>> So, how do you judge? I mean, how do you
decide that
>> you you you just have to be objective.
You just have to sort of like say, is
this good enough? You know, I'm not kind
of like I'm not I don't overromanticize
what I do. I'm kind of like if a song's
good, I I'll kind of it'll be good
because it's good sort of thing.
>> That's just an instinctive thing.
>> Yeah, it's an instin instinctive thing.
And you learn how to judge that e better
as you get older. I think, you know, I
think it's harder to judge when you're
young. When you're young as a band, you
go through phases. is you go through
this phase of struggle where you can't
really write songs and suddenly you can
write songs and then you go through
what's called the imperial phase where
where basically everything you write is
kind of gold dust and then you go
through another phase where you think
everything you write is gold dust but
it's not and you kind of that's when you
that's when the mistakes start happening
and then if you stick around long enough
you go through another phase where
you're able to have object kind of like
real objectivity about your work and
we're at that stage now so I kind of
like I I kind of think I know what the
good stuff is. So what is the gold dust
phase then? How what creates that?
>> I don't know.
>> Some weird alchemy.
>> I wish I knew. Yeah. Yeah. It's that
it's experience. It's it's it's a bit of
inspiration. It's a lot of perspiration
as well.
>> What was your gold dust phase then?
>> Well, I mean the imperial phase with
with Suede was is with with every band.
It's the early years. It's it's kind of
like for us it was like the early 90s or
whatever. That kind of period where
everything you wrote was just oh yeah,
there's another great one. There's
another great one. Didn't really have to
think about it too much. And I think
you're you're much more instinctive in
those days. As you get older, you have
to learn you you have to sort of learn
it a bit bit more uh a bit more
technically and learn a bit and learn to
be in control of your of your
objectivity a bit more. I think
>> your your background, your working-class
background Yeah. Um
>> was always
>> important to your writing. Yeah. And
you've written about it in books as
well. Yeah. Um in in great detail. How
how
What is your class identity now? And how
important is it?
>> What is my class identity? Well, I mean,
class is such a weird thing to to to to
pinpoint, isn't it? It's so it's so hard
that all the the myriad of things that
go go to make up class. It's so it's so
hard to really identify. I think of
myself as working class cuz that's how I
was born. I was, you know, I was born to
to to a very poor family. My father was
a was a taxi driver. Um, we lived in a
little council house in Sussex. Um, but
it was an unusual upbringing because it
wasn't a conventional working-class
upbringing. We didn't live in a tower
block in Hatne. We didn't live in a in a
mining town in the north of England. It
was a sort of a council estate on the
edge of a sort of Sussex village. So,
it's a weird kind of thing.
>> Yeah. And Lynfield's really nice. I've
cycled through.
>> It is. It's lovely, but not the bit I
lived in, you know. So, and my mom and
dad were very cultured. So my father was
a was a taxi driver but he was a
classical music obsessive not just a fan
he was a cl he used to go to list
friends list birthplace every year and
you know pay homage to friends list this
sort of thing and my mother was an
artist so that the house even though
there was no money we were we were we
were sort of like financially poor but
culturally rich and I was exposed to
lots of art and my sister became an
artist and all these sorts of things.
So, it's a weird kind of contradiction
of of of of things that that go to my
upbringing. So, I think of myself as
working-class, but obviously the values
that my family had weren't workingass or
not conventionally workingass.
Um, h how do you feel um I mean during
Suede's sort of emergence and sort of
initial stardom, we were in a period of
Britain in which you know people wanted
class to disappear. Yeah.
>> You know, there was great social
progress. we were, you know, gay rights,
anti-racism, all of these things were
kind of like on the march.
>> Um,
and we were heading towards some sort of
weird classless society in which
everyone would be middle class.
>> That was sort of a rested development,
wasn't it? Shortly after that, and and
if you look at where we are now, the
broken people we are now, class seems
sort of important again.
>> You know, it's the thing that defines a
lot of our culture wars, our politics,
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think people
are always looking for identity, aren't
they? You know, they every everyone is
always looking for to to to to sort of
like be part of a tribe and that's what
that's what happens in politics and
that's what happens with religion.
That's what happens with music as well.
And I think that's one of the reasons
that that music is still such an
incredibly live music especially is such
a powerful force because it gives people
a forum to to to identify with groups of
people. Also, the other interesting
thing about live music is I think that
um it gives people a a space to let go.
I think that's really important. I think
society now feels there's a sense of
suppression about society that I feel I
feel as though as a as a citizen of the
21st century, you're being issued with
commands. You know, you get on the train
and you're being told to see it, say it
sorted. You put your headphones on,
you're saying disconnected, connected.
It's this sort of series of commands
you've been issued. And that sense you
lose when you're in a in a gig, when
you're experiencing live music because
you can kind of like let yourself go and
become primal again, but within a sort
of a a kind of safe framework in a way,
you know, you can kind of like you can
become the sort of the mad um sort of
anim animalistic sort of version of
yourself that you're only allowed to
within a within a within a gig. And then
kind of
>> and it is tribal. You're with a bunch of
people who feel the same way.
>> Yeah, exactly. With a group of people.
And that's that search for for identity.
And that's what, you know, that sort of
thing, I guess, when people were sitting
around a campfire, you know, 40,000
years ago and there was kind of like
saber-tooth tigers kind of like circling
them and stuff like that and they were,
you know, they were sort of singing
songs and and there was the same kind of
thing. It's that search for that kind of
like identity, you know. So, how do you
feel about this Brit pop revival this
summer with all these huge gigs and lots
of live music and, you know, and people
enjoying themselves in a nostalgic way.
>> That's fine for them. With respect, it
doesn't mean anything to me. Nostalgia.
in what we're doing in the future. Um,
with all due respect that everyone has
to get what they can out of these things
and that's absolutely fine. Totally
respect that. Um, for Suede, it's all
about our next record. It's all about
the latest thing we're doing. I love
that about Suede. I love that sense of
sense sense of of of industry that we
have. We're we're kind of we work very
hard. That's why we're sort of 10 albums
in and still loving what we're doing
kind of thing. Nostalgia. Yeah. Fine.
I'm I'm proud of what we did in the
'90s. Um, lots of other bands, they seem
to just be going around the in in
circles doing the same thing that they
did in the 90s. That's fine. Whatever.
That's what they want to do. I don't I
don't have any criticism for that. I
don't particularly want to want to do
that.
>> Do you enjoy being nostalgic about the
music you love?
>> Uh, I suppose so. Of course, because you
know there's there's a there's a phase
in your life, isn't there, where where
where music, you know, when you're 15,
16, that kind of age in your life, and
those songs, they speak to you in a way
that they the songs will never speak to
you again. Uh, you know, and you will
always be reminded of those times in
your life through those songs. And so,
of course, yeah, it's an incredibly
powerful thing. Of course. So, how how
will your live shows be different then
to you know what we're you know what
Oasis is doing and C and every different
because they'll they'll have songs that
are written in 2025
rather than songs that are written in
1995. Yeah. That's that's that's how
they'll be different. Obviously, we
still play old songs because there's
certain old hits that you just have to
play. And and to be honest, things like
Animal Nitro, Beautiful Ones, these kind
of songs, they're they're great songs to
to get the audience going. And we use
them as tools in the in the set. They
kind of like in, you know, they get they
get the crowd rabid and and I like
hysteria in gigs. Hysteria is really
important. You know, I don't like gigs
to be a kind of um a sort of a sort of
too intellectual an affair. It's got to
be passionate. It's got to be anim
animalistic.
>> How easy is it to be hysterical in the
South Bank Center then?
>> Well, it's of a cultural
>> find out.
>> Yeah,
>> there are seats and things like that.
You know,
>> there are seats, but I we've done quite
a few seated venues on the on the last
tour and I always get the crowd to just
come down the front and I just, you
know, get out of your seats, come down.
It's got to be sway gigs have got to be
mad, you know, and our fans know what to
do. So, hopefully be okay. And you you
you do very loud and and also quite
quiet acoustic moments as well.
>> Yeah, I think live music is is about
those extremes. I think it's it's it's
all about um you know a barrage of noise
and then kind of intimacy or something
like that, you know, just it's all about
those those dynamics, I think,
>> because what what are you getting out of
constantly writing? You know, there are
lots of people who say, well, look, you
know, you've got a cannon of work. Yeah.
>> You don't really need to be writing any
new stuff. you can make a great living
and have lots of fun and go out on stage
and all the rest of it playing what
you've done.
>> So, what what is it you get in terms of
the kick or the stimulation or whatever
it is from continuing to do new stuff?
>> It's it's just I think a writer needs to
write. It's as simple as that. You kind
of like, you know, um when you're in a
band, you're you're both a writer and a
performer and performing things is
they're both just as important as each
other. But I need I can't I couldn't
just have one of those things. I need
the I need the I need to create as well.
And the search for the perfect song is
is a is a really addictive thing
actually. It's really that that kind of
like you're you're you're sort of like
reaching you're reaching you're reaching
you're trying to you're trying to
capture this sort of elusive butterfly.
But when you get it in your net and you
get that chorus and you get that melody
it's there there's no feeling like it.
And do you think people are sort of
looking at your words now the way that
>> I hope so
>> people used to? Well, the way you you
used to kind of have to because you'd
read the album.
>> And you you'd see the the lyrics on the
album sleeve and all that kind of stuff,
which is obviously not how people listen
to music now.
>> Um so if you want to go and see what it
is you're precisely saying, you've got
to look it up.
>> Um Yeah.
>> And do you think people do?
>> I think they do. I mean it it I mean
words in music fascinate me because I
think there's certain bands that it
doesn't really matter what the words
are. The words are just acting as a sort
of like almost like a a sort of device
for the for the for the singer to play
his instrument almost, you know, and
that's fine. And there's lots of great
music that isn't particularly literary.
And then there's other bands that the
words mean everything, you know. It's it
it very much depends on the band. But I
don't I I'm kind of I think we're sort
of somewhere in between the the I've
never I I don't write sort of pieces of
pros or poetry and then sort of like
force music onto them. I kind of it's
very much a kind of like a a
collaborative affair between the melody
and the and the words. But words are
very important to me that find finding
the key the moist you know is a is a
really is is a really wonderful thing. I
spend a lot of time scribbling into my
notebook, um, listening to phrases,
stealing phrases from films and books
and things like that and, you know,
ripping them off and, you know, that's
what art is. It's appropriation, isn't
it? But you got to be clever about it.
>> Um, I mean, the the beginning of this
record sort of begins with um, human
disintegration.
>> Yes.
>> Um, is that how you feel?
>> You know, are you are you worried about
being your age? Uh, I think as you get
older, I'm 58 now. Um, and I think, you
know, as you sort of like, you know, I'm
nearly 60 and and you have to be aware
of mortality and you have to be aware of
your own mortality. Um, but I don't
think that that's necessarily a morbid
thing. I think it's a I I treat I treat
um
sort of the sense of mortality in the
same sense that momento morai is used in
art. So momento mora is like it's you
know it's as we know it's a it's a
reminder of death quite literally but
that reminder of death enables you to
seize the moment and to live life to its
full and I think that's a really
important attitude to have to life that
there's not much time left but that's
not a bad thing live life to the full
and that's what that's one of the
messages of the song I messages of the
album I suppose. Um, do you think that
brackets you in terms of who's who's
going to be drawn to the music? Like,
are you writing for your own generation
now?
>> Um, am I writing for my own generation?
Uh, no. I don't feel that sense that I
am. I'm writing for myself and that
that's projected onto people my age. I
like to think that that obviously I'm
I'm aware that there's most of our
listeners are are kind of my generation
maybe a little bit younger but we also
do to do attract quite a lot of younger
people as well so they obviously connect
with it in a different way but yeah I
think every every band sort of has to
inevitably writes for their own
generation because they're writing for
themselves. So,
>> I mean, when you say you're writing for
yourself, what do you mean? I mean, what
do you mean literally you're writing for
yourself? Because
>> No, I mean that that you reflect you you
you you kind of use yourself as a
sounding board to to explore parts of
the human condition. So, so when you're
a young writer in your 20ies, you're
writing about sort of being a
20-year-old man. Um, it would be really
sad if I was still trying to write about
being a 20-year-old man in my 50s. So I
try and write about the things that
concern me now as a 50 58 year old man.
So I write about I think you've always
got you um songwriting is about
accessing passion and when you're young
that passion is sort of things like oh
my girlfriend's left just left me and oh
I feel a bit lonely and all these sorts
of things you know and when you get
older your passion my passions are
things like my family right so you it's
a completely different sort of passion
obviously but
>> it's a very different kind of passion
isn't it because you might just find
yourself writing about your irritating
children or Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So, I'm I write about my family a lot. I
write, you know, the songs about my son
that I write because that's the these
things obsess me. Um because that's the
the those that's where I find real
passion. And I write about the fragility
of family as well, the kind of like the
paranoia of family. I think there's a
see that writing about one's family is a
is a kind of like a cozy affair and that
you always have to write about a family
in a in a kind of nice cozy sense. And I
like to look for the the darker elements
of of family life. I never I never look
for them in a in in my dayto-day as a as
a as a husband and a father. I I I I
never let that into my into into my
train of thought. as a writer. I think
that's a really interesting place to
find.
>> I mean, I've I've seen you sort of
talking about as a writer kind of
putting yourself in different
perspectives.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And is that is that your your your sort
of your kick if you like?
>> Yeah. I think I think just sort of
looking at the world from different
through different through different
eyes. Yeah. That's I've always tried to
do that from the very early days. I
always put myself in different people's
you know if they come from different
perspectives. some of the songs are
about me but from other people's points
of view, you know. I think that's kind
of keeps it fresh and it keeps it
interesting and it also I think keeps it
it it fluid. I think I think keeping
songs interesting. Songs are interesting
when you don't quite know what they're
about. As soon as I personally know what
a song's about, I kind of I get a bit
bored of it sometimes. I find I find
that it's not interesting to me. I I
like it when I when I work out 20 years
later what my songs are about, you know,
and sometimes they do reveal themselves
to me very slowly.
>> Which ones have surprised you?
>> Well, there's a song on the debut album
called The Next Life, and and I didn't
really realize it was about my mother
until quite recently. And you know, and
these songs, they've they've got these
different they reveal themselves over a
long period of time.
>> Just explain that. I mean,
>> well, it's it's a song about loss, but
it's specifically about my mother. So,
you know, I don't know. It wasn't
consciously.
>> No, I think the subconscious is a it
plays a huge part in in all art. I I use
it quite I use my subconscious quite
consciously. That's not a contradiction.
When I'm writing, if I I'm kind of
working away on a song and like maybe
I've got a chorus and I'm looking for a
melody in the verse and I'm trying for a
few hours and I can't quite get it. What
I'll do is I'll go away and I'll just
switch off for a bit and I'll go and
have a sandwich or go for a walk and let
your subconscious work on the record,
work on the, you know, try and um solve
the puzzle. And it often does you often
come to ah got it. Yeah. So the
subconscious is a is a great tool.
>> And if if you've got a lot better at
sort of being discerning about your work
now, do do you do you also then judge
your early work more harshly and go, you
know, how how did that make it? Yes. I
think I'm quite I can be quite Yeah, I
could be quite quite quite critical of
of
>> Do you go off things?
>> Yeah. I mean, there's lots of stuff that
that we did in the early days that that
I wouldn't do again. I'm always looking
at early albums and think, "God, why do
we put that song on there?" You know
what I mean? It's kind of it's odd, but
you have to remember that that you do
these things because you're a different
person. You know, it's it's a very
different me that made those decisions.
And also the other thing to remember is
that people I think people like things
not despite their flaws but because of
their flaws. Sometimes the flaws give it
give give things kind of like character.
>> You you've described Broken Music for
Broken People as a as a film well a
little bit of 1984 in there.
>> What do you mean by that? Um there's a
phrase in in 1984 um when Winston is is
is kind of yearning for some sort of
some sort of uh um kind of uprising in
society and he's he he says uh if
there's hope it lies with the pros and I
I suppos and the phrase broken music for
broken people it sort of that sort of it
it reminded me of that.
>> Do you think that's true?
>> Do I think
>> if there's hope it lies with the pros? I
don't know. That's, you know, it's a
novel. It's it's I don't want I'm not
sure if I want to kind of like tread
there. It feels a bit, you know, it
feels a bit redot of talking about that.
I'd rather not go there. Um I think I
think slogans can be really powerful in
pop music and that was just a slogan
that I came up with.
>> Um it didn't really have a narrative. It
it suggested the world. It suggested a
kind of like I suppose I'm I'm kind of
always writing about my background a
little bit. You know, like we were
saying earlier, I come from a sort of an
underprivileged background and I'm
always trying to find a pride in that, I
suppose. And and broken music for broken
people sort of spoke to spoke to that.
politics? No, I don't want to
deliberately avoid politics, but I think
it's become increasingly tribal and
increasingly toxic and it's very
difficult to talk about
>> because the funny thing is that Dancing
with the Europeans, which is one of your
releases, sounds instantly political.
>> Dancing with the
>> It does. And I was aware that it
probably would people lots of people
would think it was some sort of
anti-rexit song or something like that.
And I don't it wasn't intended like
that. It's meant meant as a song. It's
it's a song seeking connection. It was
it was inspired by a concert I did we
did in Spain where there was just an
amazing connection in the room. So it's
it's a song about kind of breaking down
barriers in lots of ways I suppose. But
you know people can sort of like
interpret songs however they want to. I
think that's the beautiful thing about
songs and it's a beautiful thing about
art in a broader sense is that it
doesn't belong to the artist. It belongs
to the interpreter. It belongs to the
audience. You know and
art asks a question and the audience
answers it. And I think that's an
incredible thing. They the audience
always brings a new element to the to to
the art and something like that is a
perfect example. If people want to think
it's about something like that, they're
perfectly welcome to.
>> If you could change the world in any
way, how would you change it?
>> Um, if I could change the world in any
way, I've thought about this. I think
one of the one of the if I could wave a
magic wand, I would uninvent social
media.
I think social media is responsible for
many ills in 21st century life. I think
that the way that it polarizes people um
the way that it tribalizes tribalizes is
that a word probably it is now the way
that the way that tribalizes people
um turns people into tribes. Uh yeah, I
I think it's toxic and I think it it
means that lots of people are living in
very different realities and it and it
worries me that those those realities
won't be able to be resolved.
>> Is that I mean because obviously you
know the the supposed upside to social
media is creating connections
>> and yet we seem very disconnected.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I think what it does is it
creates create creates connections
within sort of siloed groups. So, so
that people find their tribes and I
suppose as a as a kind of musician that
kind of likes tribalism within music,
that's sounds like a contradiction. I
think it's fine for pop music to find
for pop musicians to find tribes. You
know, the music I used to like as a kid,
it was very tribal. You know, punk,
heavy metal, all these sorts of things.
But as a society it kind of worries me
that we seem to be splitting off into
these fra ever ever more fractured
groups. Um so yeah I think I think in
lots of ways people find connection
through it but it also means that
there's there's lots of division as
well.
>> And is that partly what you mean by
broken people?
>> I think so. Yeah. I think it is. I think
it's I I I sort of see I see lots of
lots of lots of fracturing in in in life
at the moment. Yeah. Um, you you also
though do try to be I mean, you know,
music is is is an anti-depressant. It's
therefore uplifting and happy. So, how
do you you know, when you when you're
looking at these sort of quite um
dystopian things in a lot of ways? How
do you turn it to actually we've got to
feel great and we've got to turn the
music up loud and
>> Yeah. Well, I think that the two are a
sort of, you know, in a symbiotic
relationship. But I think if you if you
feel that that that kind of life is is
is sometime sometimes kicking you down,
there's a sense of sort of defiance to
that. Lots of the sort of sense of joy
on the on the record is is a is a is is
an expression of defiance. You know, I
think that kind of, you know, people are
yearning for to to be able to let go and
be defiant these days.
And just finally as a top tip, um, if
you're listening to music all day, um,
as an anti-depressant,
>> yes.
>> What are you listening to at the moment?
>> What do I listen to at the moment? Well,
I listen to a lot of in the morning I
listen to I've got a little little
record player in my house and it's
really interesting. What sounds good on
a little, it's like an old dance set
thing, like a mono thing, and really old
sort of 60s folk records sound great on
there. So, I love playing Nick Drake and
Joanie Mitchell and things like that in
the mo in the morning. And then later
on, I'll listen I I always try and
listen to new stuff as well. So, there's
new bands that I like. Uh there's a band
called New Dad that I really like. Um
so, I'm always looking for new stuff. I
like things like Fontaine. I like things
like um uh dry cleaning, things like
that. So, there's lots of good new music
out there. I think you got to look
harder for it, but it's out there
definitely.
>> Anderson, thank you very much indeed.
>> Thank you so much. Thanks for sharing
your ways to change the world. I hope
you enjoyed that. Um, if you did, uh,
you could give this a rating, uh, so
that other people will find the podcast
on your podcast platform. You can watch
all of these interviews on the Channel 4
News YouTube channel. Until next time,
bye-bye.